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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPC 07-28-2026 Youtube and Zoom TranscriptWEBVTT 1 00:00:04.340 --> 00:00:10.180 Community Hall: Welcome to the Planning Commission Meeting for July 28th, 2026. Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. 2 00:00:29.140 --> 00:00:31.690 Community Hall: City Crook, may you please have the roll call? 3 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:40.680 Community Hall: Commissioner Fung? Present. Commissioner Linskogg? Present. Commissioner Rao? Here. Vice Chair Scharf? Present. Chair Casolchron? Present. 4 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:51.429 Community Hall: Great, thank you. So we will now move on to the approval of minutes. May we please have a motion to approve the July 14th? So moved. Second. 5 00:00:51.580 --> 00:00:55.560 Community Hall: And I will just comment, thank you to City Clerk for taking such detailed notes in the minutes. 6 00:00:56.080 --> 00:00:57.990 Community Hall: Let's move to a vote. 7 00:01:05.890 --> 00:01:07.930 Community Hall: The motion carries unanimously. 8 00:01:08.270 --> 00:01:12.730 Community Hall: Great, so we will move on to oral communications. City Clerk, do we have anyone wishing to speak? 9 00:01:16.660 --> 00:01:18.450 Community Hall: We have no speakers, Chair. 10 00:01:19.110 --> 00:01:33.869 Community Hall: Great, so we will move on then to the public hearing. Tonight on Agenda Item 2, it is the Municipal Code Amendment to Chapter 19.08 to revise definitions of attics and garages and establish a new definition of square footage. Do we have a staff report? 11 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:48.749 Community Hall: Yes, good evening, Planning Commission, thank you very much. I would actually like to introduce tonight maybe a familiar face, Special Counsel to the City, John Cardenas, and he will be making the presentation tonight. So, with that, I will hand it over to him. 12 00:01:56.220 --> 00:01:57.669 Community Hall: Thank you. 13 00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:04.119 Community Hall: You all can hear me. Good evening, Commissioners. I'm here tonight to address, three… 14 00:02:04.470 --> 00:02:12.320 Community Hall: Code definition amendments, that have been under discussion, and, we would like to 15 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:16.670 Community Hall: Have you all consider for approval, 16 00:02:17.540 --> 00:02:31.840 Community Hall: These, definition revisions have, I would say, evolved based upon our evaluation of recent projects, housing projects under state law. 17 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:43.980 Community Hall: California state law, especially the streamlined review of mixed-use developments, highlighted a mismatch between our local municipal code and state standards. 18 00:02:44.100 --> 00:02:51.230 Community Hall: So whereas state standards focus on a definition of square footage. 19 00:02:51.400 --> 00:03:00.489 Community Hall: Historically, the city in evaluating these projects has relied upon our, local ordinance definition of floor area. 20 00:03:00.620 --> 00:03:07.289 Community Hall: And that's because the municipal code lacked a definition of square footage. 21 00:03:07.480 --> 00:03:22.109 Community Hall: That was an adequate substitute for a while, but as… as we're seeing, ongoing… this ongoing, gap or mismatch, creates potential disputed interpretations. 22 00:03:22.140 --> 00:03:31.610 Community Hall: That we would like to head off in the future, especially around consideration of streamlined applications. 23 00:03:31.950 --> 00:03:50.740 Community Hall: So, in terms of state law, what I'm referring to is SB35 compliance, which requires that the city verify that at least two-thirds of a project that qualifies under SB35 square footage is designated for residential use. 24 00:03:51.140 --> 00:04:08.139 Community Hall: And what we've seen is that the floor area definition in the municipal code really applies and is most appropriate to parcel-level floor area ratios and general plan development allocations. So, 25 00:04:09.170 --> 00:04:24.020 Community Hall: Initially, we considered looking at a revision to floor area, but the consequences within the local ordinance, it would be impacting other areas of the zoning frameworks. 26 00:04:24.020 --> 00:04:32.199 Community Hall: So, instead, what we did was focus on creating a standalone definition of square footage in the municipal code. 27 00:04:32.320 --> 00:04:51.859 Community Hall: A definition that's aligned with state housing laws, consistent with the building code, and introduces some clarifications that we think are important to ensure proportional allocation of residential and office space. 28 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.340 Community Hall: Also, importantly, 29 00:04:54.440 --> 00:05:06.180 Community Hall: The introduction of these new definitions is completely forward-looking, so it doesn't have any retroactive effect to existing or past projects. 30 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:14.060 Community Hall: Along with, the new definition of, square footage. 31 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:30.170 Community Hall: We're interest… we're revising definition… two definitions, one for garage and one for attic, again, to provide clarification, around the… the calculation methodology. 32 00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:37.090 Community Hall: Previously, just as a note, the definition of garage was 33 00:05:37.200 --> 00:05:51.919 Community Hall: described at a general level, and, was vague enough that, in looking at larger housing projects, it would pull in structured residential parking. So, one effort in, 34 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.870 Community Hall: Providing a revised definition is to clarify that garage, residential. 35 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:11.440 Community Hall: only applies to single-level or detached structures serving smaller-scale residential units. And specifically, it excludes large parking structures with drive aisles and maneuvering areas. 36 00:06:12.690 --> 00:06:29.110 Community Hall: And then lastly, we've provided a revised definition for attic, and again, with clarification in mind, previously, the definition of attic, was stated at a pretty general level, an unconditioned 37 00:06:29.260 --> 00:06:32.490 Community Hall: Uninhabitable area between the ceiling and roof. 38 00:06:32.630 --> 00:06:35.959 Community Hall: What we're doing with this definition is introducing 39 00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:52.329 Community Hall: some objective descriptions to… to be able to clarify attic from, floor area, and ensuring that there's a clear distinction between the two. So, adding, additional descriptions for unfinished… 40 00:06:52.530 --> 00:06:58.119 Community Hall: Space, lack of permanent stairs, and no operable windows. 41 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:09.199 Community Hall: So this, we expect, will provide greater certainty, and more efficiency for the planners in, determining attic space. 42 00:07:10.570 --> 00:07:16.449 Community Hall: This isn't a project under CEQA, so, CEQA analysis doesn't apply. 43 00:07:16.540 --> 00:07:27.299 Community Hall: And then just quickly to summarize, the purpose of these definitions is to provide alignment with our local ordinances, under state law. 44 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:45.759 Community Hall: We see it as protecting the city to remove ambiguities that could lead to disputes and even possibly litigation, and to streamline the process for planning to be able to evaluate complex, multi-family, multi-use projects more efficiently. 45 00:07:47.950 --> 00:07:56.649 Community Hall: So, the recommended action is to adopt the resolution, and that's in your package before you. 46 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:01.019 Community Hall: That's it, open to any questions. Thank you. 47 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.010 Community Hall: Great, thank you very much, and we'll bring it back to the Commission for any clarifying questions. Commissioner Rao? 48 00:08:06.200 --> 00:08:12.520 Community Hall: Yes, thank you, Chair. I'm curious about how this item comes on our agenda today. 49 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.589 Community Hall: Was this part of the CWP, or… 50 00:08:15.970 --> 00:08:20.709 Community Hall: Was this directed to us by Council or the mayor? How did this item… 51 00:08:21.070 --> 00:08:24.509 Community Hall: Show up today versus the sign ordinance, for example. 52 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:30.960 Community Hall: So, and… Piu may… 53 00:08:31.140 --> 00:08:50.310 Community Hall: please, planning colleagues, feel free to add, but in terms of how this has come, I really see it as a bit of cleanup, in terms of looking at where the city has been in evaluating housing projects, and ensuring… I mean, I think… 54 00:08:50.590 --> 00:09:00.180 Community Hall: Our, our code definitions are constantly evolving, but at this point in time, ensuring that consistency under state law. 55 00:09:00.310 --> 00:09:10.789 Community Hall: And again, I would point out that, even though it has evolved from our prior evaluation of housing projects. 56 00:09:10.900 --> 00:09:21.120 Community Hall: application is only forward-looking, so it doesn't have any look-back or reach-back effect on earlier housing. Thank you, yeah, that's certainly, 57 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:26.249 Community Hall: a much-needed task to, I guess, continue to look at. 58 00:09:26.450 --> 00:09:30.539 Community Hall: ways to bring code hygiene, I guess, as we call it in the tech industry. 59 00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:33.090 Community Hall: Code hygiene, in this sense, being to the Mooney Code. 60 00:09:33.310 --> 00:09:38.280 Community Hall: But I am curious, was this part of the CWP, or… 61 00:09:38.590 --> 00:09:42.620 Community Hall: What directs this item to be at the top of… 62 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:47.250 Community Hall: the priority for staff, because I know we've been waiting on ODS, 63 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.319 Community Hall: We've been waiting on other things in CWP. 64 00:09:50.580 --> 00:09:53.619 Community Hall: So just curious how this item comes to the top. 65 00:09:53.850 --> 00:10:00.559 Community Hall: of priorities. So, if I may chime in, I think this is a question period for the presentation. 66 00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:12.879 Community Hall: I think, John is explaining it came because there needs to be cleanup of the code, just to make it more accurate and consistent with state law. I hope that answers your question. 67 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:18.560 Community Hall: I see. So… 68 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.659 Community Hall: Maybe this is a question for the chair, then. Am I allowed to ask questions for the chair? 69 00:10:23.810 --> 00:10:25.319 Community Hall: Or is this only for staff? 70 00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:34.010 Community Hall: Chair, I wonder whether we should take a break and we can answer and address Commissioner Rao's, 71 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:50.789 Community Hall: questions about why this is on today's agenda, is what I understand the questions to be? I do not need a break for that. If we need a break, then we can keep going. Well, I want to respect the public's time and understanding what's been agendized for discussion here tonight, Commissioner Rao. I think the 72 00:10:50.940 --> 00:11:00.980 Community Hall: The context for the question is we have had previous discussions, During the housing element cycle. 73 00:11:01.180 --> 00:11:03.290 Community Hall: To increase the flow-rated ratio. 74 00:11:04.130 --> 00:11:07.550 Community Hall: And that discussion received a lot of resident feedback. 75 00:11:07.850 --> 00:11:10.280 Community Hall: Do not increase the flow radiant ratio. 76 00:11:10.930 --> 00:11:13.679 Community Hall: And I'm trying to understand, is this… 77 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:17.330 Community Hall: Is this strictly a state law update? Are we… 78 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:22.080 Community Hall: Are we required to keep up with these state law changes, or how are we treating 79 00:11:22.270 --> 00:11:25.220 Community Hall: The discrepancy between state law and our local code. 80 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:27.450 Community Hall: Absent this change currently. 81 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:36.219 Community Hall: This item is to ensure that our local code is consistent with state law. 82 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:44.330 Community Hall: Understood. The question, I guess, is for projects under review currently, absent this change. 83 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:46.770 Community Hall: How do we apply the… 84 00:11:47.300 --> 00:11:55.609 Community Hall: difference. I have always assumed. If the state law states differently than local code, state law applies. Is that accurate? 85 00:11:56.980 --> 00:12:05.070 Community Hall: I… that's not agendized for this discussion right now, Commissioner Rao, but, 86 00:12:05.260 --> 00:12:13.270 Community Hall: We always seek to conform and comply with both state law and our local laws. And hopefully. 87 00:12:13.390 --> 00:12:14.860 Community Hall: They are consistent. 88 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:20.800 Community Hall: Okay, that's, I guess, 89 00:12:20.950 --> 00:12:27.280 Community Hall: a question to staff, but I guess CAO would like to answer on behalf of staff. I guess this is a question of how we interpret 90 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:33.159 Community Hall: conflicting… Sections of overlapping code between local code and state law. 91 00:12:33.500 --> 00:12:34.930 Community Hall: You might… sorry. 92 00:12:36.090 --> 00:12:37.070 Community Hall: Go ahead, go ahead. 93 00:12:37.180 --> 00:12:44.850 Community Hall: I was going to make one comment in terms of the focus of 94 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:55.920 Community Hall: these revisions might be a little more discrete than the question that you're answering, and I, I think that as… 95 00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:10.149 Community Hall: Attorney Wu has stated, The effort is to bring these definitions, into… Alignment with state law? 96 00:13:10.270 --> 00:13:24.279 Community Hall: That's not to say that in the future there might be other definitions as well that need to be brought in alignment, and so I think maybe this might be a more discrete focus, and, you know, as additional items… 97 00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:31.799 Community Hall: get put out there. It's likely that we'll be looking at other areas where 98 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:38.060 Community Hall: State law requires local ordinance definitions to… to be… 99 00:13:38.170 --> 00:13:48.269 Community Hall: considered. So is it fair, then, to say the only changes in front of us today are state law-driven, and there is no additional changes that have come in? 100 00:13:48.450 --> 00:13:53.270 Community Hall: Due to… A desire to add further changes beyond the state law? 101 00:13:54.560 --> 00:14:05.299 Community Hall: it's… my… yeah, that was my intent, to just bring it in conformity with state law, that's correct. And should commissioners find any clauses 102 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.119 Community Hall: That were not required by state law, but were proposed changes today. 103 00:14:09.390 --> 00:14:11.430 Community Hall: How should we deal with those? 104 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:18.990 Community Hall: Mr. Wu? 105 00:14:19.640 --> 00:14:20.540 Community Hall: Phew. 106 00:14:21.580 --> 00:14:25.049 Community Hall: Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the question. Commissioner, can you repeat the question, please? 107 00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:27.480 Community Hall: Yeah, so the question was if… 108 00:14:27.870 --> 00:14:31.460 Community Hall: The purpose of the agenda is to bring us in compliance with state law. 109 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:37.940 Community Hall: But we find during today's deliberations, there are changes not required by state law, but that are in the 110 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.229 Community Hall: Change packet before us today. 111 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.590 Community Hall: How should we approach those changes? 112 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:46.500 Community Hall: I believe. 113 00:14:47.510 --> 00:14:51.200 Community Hall: Legal interpretation and legal recommendations. 114 00:14:51.660 --> 00:14:59.240 Community Hall: within the purview of Mr. Cardenas, who's an attorney, and who's reviewed state law, and reviewed local law. 115 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:03.090 Community Hall: And has, made recommendations to align them. 116 00:15:04.050 --> 00:15:07.449 Community Hall: If you have a separate legal opinion. 117 00:15:08.350 --> 00:15:09.880 Community Hall: We are open to hearing it. 118 00:15:10.810 --> 00:15:19.220 Community Hall: All right, why don't we, let's, open this up to other commissioners as well to ask questions, and Commissioner Rao, we can circle back to you. Thank you. Any other questions. Vice Chair. 119 00:15:19.510 --> 00:15:22.540 Community Hall: Sure, so I have 5 questions, 120 00:15:22.890 --> 00:15:28.249 Community Hall: So, if a garage is excluded from square footage. 121 00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:32.059 Community Hall: What happens when the garage is turned into an ADU? 122 00:15:35.830 --> 00:15:36.590 Community Hall: Hmm? 123 00:15:37.870 --> 00:15:53.339 Community Hall: I can try to answer that. So, a garage is not excluded from square footage. Garage is included in square footage. Square footage, basically, is only for the state streamlined projects. That definition only applies to state streamlined projects. 124 00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:57.959 Community Hall: The definition of floor area already includes garage in it. 125 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:09.059 Community Hall: So it doesn't change anything. So, for example, if you were to build a house, and you had a two-car garage, and down the road you decided to convert it to an ADU, it doesn't make any difference to the floor area of that home. 126 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:09.980 Community Hall: Okay. 127 00:16:10.300 --> 00:16:14.840 Community Hall: Does a finished basement not count as square footage? 128 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:16.200 Community Hall: No. 129 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:26.570 Community Hall: But that's only for state streamlined review. I mean, for the city's review, if a basement is… it has to meet certain criteria in order for it to not 130 00:16:26.930 --> 00:16:39.160 Community Hall: be counted as floor area. So… so the square footage definition, just park it for purposes of mixed-use development, larger residential development, and office development, but that's… that's… 131 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:43.560 Community Hall: Something different from what floor area is for our local purposes. 132 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:50.879 Community Hall: Okay, and does state law require no permanent stairs to an attic? 133 00:16:51.790 --> 00:16:56.870 Community Hall: And I can see attics being used as storage areas, and… somebody having 134 00:16:57.170 --> 00:17:02.590 Community Hall: you know, a wooden stairway up there that is always there. It's not one of those pull-down. 135 00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:06.040 Community Hall: Stairways that comes out of an opening. 136 00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:09.450 Community Hall: So does state law require no permanent stairs? 137 00:17:11.849 --> 00:17:18.859 Community Hall: I, I, I would say, the no permanent stair, addition is part of… 138 00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:32.180 Community Hall: A set of objective descriptions that, are consistent with state law, and that was our aim to bring those two into alignment as best as possible. 139 00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:40.309 Community Hall: Okay, I'm not sure that really answered the question, heh, was that a no? 140 00:17:43.150 --> 00:17:52.990 Community Hall: Was that a no state law? It doesn't require no permanent stairs as well. The state law requires objective standards, and to the extent that 141 00:17:53.530 --> 00:17:56.669 Community Hall: That articulates an objective standard. 142 00:17:57.340 --> 00:18:01.159 Community Hall: So that was something that we came up with in the city, not… 143 00:18:01.850 --> 00:18:11.190 Community Hall: It's not… That's right, the city, provided that. Yeah, I mean, I can see the no operable windows, and what was the third thing? 144 00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:16.370 Community Hall: Yeah, I don't remember. Unfinished, right, unfinished, but… 145 00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:20.809 Community Hall: you know, I could see someone saying, hey, you know. 146 00:18:21.090 --> 00:18:27.020 Community Hall: I want… that's my storage area, I want… I want to have those stairs there. 147 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:33.710 Community Hall: So, what was the last question? Oh, so what… in multifamily projects. 148 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:38.980 Community Hall: I seem to get out of the discussion that common spaces 149 00:18:39.100 --> 00:18:46.909 Community Hall: Are counted as square footage, and they're apportioned somehow among the housing units? 150 00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:59.549 Community Hall: No, it's apportioned by, type of use. So, if you have a lobby that's shared between residential and, I don't know, commercial building, commercial space, then that lobby is apportioned 151 00:18:59.690 --> 00:19:11.410 Community Hall: as a percentage of the whole project. To get to the SB35? Correct. For purposes of streamline… for determining any ratios for streamlined ratios. Okay, that's my questions, thank you. 152 00:19:12.600 --> 00:19:14.639 Community Hall: Any other clarifying questions? 153 00:19:15.370 --> 00:19:17.420 Community Hall: Go ahead. Commissioner Kong. 154 00:19:18.340 --> 00:19:26.329 Community Hall: Commissioner Sharp actually, addressed the only question that I had, which was around that term of permanent stairs. 155 00:19:26.950 --> 00:19:30.959 Community Hall: Is… when… when I… if I had a set of pull-down stairs, is that permanent? 156 00:19:31.220 --> 00:19:34.360 Community Hall: In the view of this? No. Okay, thank you. 157 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:38.799 Community Hall: Yeah, I had a few clarifying questions, around the attic. 158 00:19:39.010 --> 00:19:46.880 Community Hall: What instances are we trying to prevent on this one? Are there people trying to count addicts in their floor area? 159 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:57.410 Community Hall: They're trying to exclude it from floor area, and then finishing it, and using it, just by sticking a couch up there, or, you know, sticking a vent up there, and things like that. 160 00:19:57.580 --> 00:20:07.800 Community Hall: Is that easy to enforce, though, afterwards? So, I mean, you know, they could make these changes afterwards. So this is… this is something that we codify, but… 161 00:20:08.110 --> 00:20:10.200 Community Hall: Is anyone following up to check? 162 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:29.990 Community Hall: again, code enforcement is reactive, and we have had complaints from people where, you know, now there are windows up in the attic, and we've actually had to deal with that in the past, where people have put in permanent stairs, and it's become a family room all of a sudden. Okay, got it, thank you. And what is the definition of unfinished? Because I know people that 163 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:35.199 Community Hall: You know, want to put in just basic flooring in their attic so they can store things more easily. 164 00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:36.730 Community Hall: But they're not living there. 165 00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:53.440 Community Hall: I guess plywood would count as unfinished, but if you're putting down tile and, you know, engineered wood and things like that, that would count as finished, with drywall, etc. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I think plywood is the one that I'm hearing, so it's good to know that doesn't count as a finish. 166 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:58.310 Community Hall: On the split between residential and commercial. 167 00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:07.469 Community Hall: on the square footage. I think that one got me a little bit, because it seems a little bit discretionary. Are we… we're planning 168 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:14.680 Community Hall: A proportionate allocation on On areas accessible to both. 169 00:21:15.460 --> 00:21:16.680 Community Hall: But… 170 00:21:19.070 --> 00:21:32.709 Community Hall: Are there ever any instances where an allocation would not be proportionate? You're just saying, based on square footage of office space? It's based on access. I mean, if something's only accessible to a non-residential use, it would be non- residential. Okay. 171 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:39.729 Community Hall: Got it, thank you. And I think my final question on this are, you know. 172 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:52.639 Community Hall: so I did see the link in the staff report going to one project, but are we expecting any other future projects that are going to try to utilize this, or we're just kind of trying to prevent unknown future instances? 173 00:21:54.560 --> 00:21:58.750 Community Hall: I, I, I'm not aware of… Yeah, we're not aware of any at this point. 174 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:03.339 Community Hall: Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions. Commissioner Rao? 175 00:22:03.690 --> 00:22:08.569 Community Hall: Yes, so would these changes apply for R1 as well as R2 and R3? 176 00:22:09.780 --> 00:22:11.270 Community Hall: They already apply. 177 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:17.039 Community Hall: to these, nothing's changing for R1, R2, or R3. 178 00:22:18.340 --> 00:22:31.819 Community Hall: Today, residential garages are already counted towards floor area, so nothing's changing there, and attic spaces are also still tenuously, but still excluded only if they meet certain criteria. 179 00:22:32.590 --> 00:22:36.349 Community Hall: And is any of that going to change as a result of this change? No. 180 00:22:41.030 --> 00:22:43.210 Community Hall: So, I'm trying to understand that, so… 181 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.509 Community Hall: If nothing changes, what is the purpose of this change? 182 00:22:49.470 --> 00:22:56.620 Community Hall: It's for purposes of floor area, the definition of, 183 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:05.610 Community Hall: square footage includes attics in there. It's in the definition of square footage. 184 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:10.100 Community Hall: And also, when you, include 185 00:23:11.570 --> 00:23:20.070 Community Hall: The clarification related to residential garage is purely a clarification, so that we treat any kind of structured parking the same. 186 00:23:20.070 --> 00:23:32.060 Community Hall: The staff report actually identifies why structured parking was always intended to not be included in floor area, because we have a concept of development allocation in the city, which is allocated as floor area. 187 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:40.779 Community Hall: And so, that was the… that's the purpose of clarifying that definition, to make sure that the original intent remains. So nothing changes for anyone. 188 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:43.899 Community Hall: And how about with the attic? 189 00:23:48.270 --> 00:23:56.660 Community Hall: It's the same, because the attic mind… the… when you look at the definition of square footage, it includes all areas that are beneath the… beneath the 190 00:23:56.780 --> 00:23:57.830 Community Hall: roof. 191 00:23:57.930 --> 00:23:59.450 Community Hall: of a structure. 192 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:07.950 Community Hall: And so, anytime that you have that, and you have those criteria met, then that gets added into square footage as well. 193 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.960 Community Hall: So, after this change is the attic square footage. 194 00:24:13.170 --> 00:24:14.929 Community Hall: Excluded or included? 195 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.000 Community Hall: Continues to be excluded for floor area purposes. 196 00:24:19.340 --> 00:24:22.020 Community Hall: And before this change, also, it was excluded. 197 00:24:23.060 --> 00:24:27.879 Community Hall: Correct. And that is true for R1, as well as R2 and R3? Yes. 198 00:24:29.100 --> 00:24:31.210 Community Hall: And these changes apply to all three, then? 199 00:24:32.110 --> 00:24:35.700 Community Hall: It applies to everything where the word floor area comes into play. 200 00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:45.819 Community Hall: Okay. I'm just still confused about why we're making this change. Maybe some other commissioner might… 201 00:24:46.040 --> 00:24:48.209 Community Hall: Be able to explain what is the… 202 00:24:48.610 --> 00:25:04.130 Community Hall: significance of this agenda item before us today. Well, I mean, from my standpoint, I think if we didn't have a clear definition of square footage in our municipal code, I actually do think it's important that we define it and we not rely on floor area Russia, which is a pretty different way of calculating 203 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:18.959 Community Hall: areas for these different types of, you know, spaces. So, I think it's fine that we're discussing this. Thank you, Chair. So, maybe another follow-on clarifying question. Are there places where staff use flow-radia ratio today? 204 00:25:19.090 --> 00:25:23.089 Community Hall: Where they would start to use square footage instead after this change. 205 00:25:24.700 --> 00:25:31.379 Community Hall: only for states' streamlined projects, not for R1, R2, R3 review. 206 00:25:31.820 --> 00:25:36.129 Community Hall: And what is the definition of state streamlined projects? Is that SP330, or… 207 00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:42.219 Community Hall: The example we were talking about was SB35. If I can… maybe I can help. 208 00:25:43.020 --> 00:25:49.570 Community Hall: Sorry, I still had to follow on to your question. SP35, is that an exhaustive situation, or is there more? 209 00:25:49.930 --> 00:25:54.069 Community Hall: Scenarios beyond SP35, where this would apply. 210 00:25:54.180 --> 00:26:08.660 Community Hall: So, Housing Accountability Act also defines any project, as residential if it has at least two-thirds of the project be attributable to residential uses. So, it could apply to any Housing Accountability Act. 211 00:26:08.910 --> 00:26:22.960 Community Hall: Project, but to the extent that that definition is identified… to the extent that language is used in the statute as square footage, then we have something that we can apply to it, because there's nothing clear there. 212 00:26:24.820 --> 00:26:26.930 Community Hall: Maybe to dump this down for… 213 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.199 Community Hall: Someone that may not be able to follow all that's happening here, including me, perhaps. 214 00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:40.840 Community Hall: After this change, do builders get additional square footage that they can seek approval for and get approved that they could not without this change? 215 00:26:41.040 --> 00:26:41.820 Community Hall: Nope. 216 00:26:43.490 --> 00:26:48.859 Community Hall: After this change, do builders get approval for attic as a part of their plans that were… 217 00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:52.220 Community Hall: For whatever reasons not approved before this change. 218 00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:53.190 Community Hall: No. 219 00:26:55.130 --> 00:26:58.870 Community Hall: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Owenskogg, did you have something to… 220 00:26:59.190 --> 00:26:59.900 Community Hall: Okay. 221 00:27:00.860 --> 00:27:02.970 Community Hall: Do we have any other questions from the Commission? 222 00:27:03.320 --> 00:27:05.810 Community Hall: City Clerk, do we have any comments on this item? 223 00:27:06.360 --> 00:27:09.759 Community Hall: We have one virtual speaker, Jennifer Griffin. 224 00:27:14.810 --> 00:27:16.240 Community Hall: Welcome, Jennifer. 225 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.639 Jennifer Griffin: Thank you. Can you all hear me? 226 00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:20.250 Community Hall: Yes, we can hear you. 227 00:27:20.250 --> 00:27:25.119 Jennifer Griffin: Thank you. You know, I… I appreciate… 228 00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:30.209 Jennifer Griffin: that we are having this discussion. I will tell you that 229 00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:37.399 Jennifer Griffin: A lot of the upcoming ministerial housing bills make me extremely nervous. 230 00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:40.129 Jennifer Griffin: And I'm glad that the city 231 00:27:40.780 --> 00:28:00.309 Jennifer Griffin: if it has come up that there are issues in terms of trying to define Florida area ratio, which I'm familiar with, and what is an attic, what is a basement, etc, etc, especially if, with SB79, we're going to be… have potentially 8 stories of multifamily housing. 232 00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:15.100 Jennifer Griffin: And there are many upcoming housing bills that are allowing more ADUs. I think that we need to make sure that the city, of course, tries to stay in step 233 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.040 Jennifer Griffin: With what the state is expecting for the 234 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:33.830 Jennifer Griffin: modern vocabulary. I can understand that the public might be confused about why we're doing this, but I think because there are so many potential housing bills, the city has to 235 00:28:34.310 --> 00:28:50.819 Jennifer Griffin: took… has to take a future view of what we're going to be doing with this. My sister-in-law in Portland has an 800-square-foot unfinished basement where they store the usual exercise equipment and things that are clothes, racks, etc. But… 236 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:57.159 Jennifer Griffin: I believe in their city, if they finished their basement, they could convert it to an ADU. 237 00:28:57.270 --> 00:29:01.350 Jennifer Griffin: So, these are the types of things that are 238 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:07.720 Jennifer Griffin: Coming down the pipeline, and the city needs to stay abreast of 239 00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:27.420 Jennifer Griffin: what is the modern nomenclature? I see the push for ADUs to be something that someone might want to put them in an attic, unfinished space, the garages, certainly. We have townhouses in Southern California where someone is converting 240 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:34.400 Jennifer Griffin: the carport into an ADU, and they did not consult the HOA board. 241 00:29:34.550 --> 00:29:43.730 Jennifer Griffin: And I'm sure this is happening all over the state. So, I appreciate the city trying to muck through this to come up with a better 242 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.739 Jennifer Griffin: think ahead of the… of this wording. 243 00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:53.249 Jennifer Griffin: I think we need to make sure that 244 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:58.649 Jennifer Griffin: Any questions that come up about this, that it's fully explained to the public. 245 00:29:59.140 --> 00:30:03.010 Jennifer Griffin: What we're doing with this, because there are going to be some… 246 00:30:03.310 --> 00:30:22.980 Jennifer Griffin: very, very large projects coming down the line, multi-family housing, and I really hope we're not going to be converting hallways into ADUs, ADUs where you have to take a rope ladder, etc. So, thank you. I know it's confusing, but this is what we're up against. Thank you. 247 00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:26.659 Community Hall: Thank you, Jennifer. I see no remaining requests to speak, Chair. 248 00:30:26.930 --> 00:30:40.349 Community Hall: Thank you, City Clerk. We'll bring it back to the Commission. Do we have any comments or further questions? Yes, Commissioner Owenscott. Hi there. So, I live on Farolone Drive in that development there that, and there's 249 00:30:40.530 --> 00:30:45.510 Community Hall: I think the same design is used throughout that neighborhood over and over again. 250 00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:48.850 Community Hall: And Commissioner Scharf lives in that neighborhood as well. 251 00:30:49.050 --> 00:30:54.900 Community Hall: I accessed my attic from my upstairs bedroom, 252 00:30:55.030 --> 00:31:04.990 Community Hall: It's permanent stairs going up to the upper floor, and then there's a door in my closet that leads to my attic. There's no other stairs beyond that, right? 253 00:31:05.100 --> 00:31:08.669 Community Hall: Per this definition, that would be counted as square footage. 254 00:31:08.910 --> 00:31:14.450 Community Hall: So… No, it wouldn't, because you're not accessing the attic itself via permanent stairs. 255 00:31:15.600 --> 00:31:23.770 Community Hall: Okay, so then the definition should be the permanent stairs directly to the attic. Correct. So that's not in this definition. 256 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:26.669 Community Hall: You could certainly add that if you wish. Okay. 257 00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:37.649 Community Hall: Yeah, I think that would be good clarification, because otherwise there's a, you know, couple hundred homes in Cupertino that would suddenly have a thousand square feet added to their homes. 258 00:31:37.910 --> 00:31:55.359 Community Hall: Sorry, can I clarify? Your stairs don't go to your attic. Where do they go? They go to the bedroom… to the upstairs. There's a landing, there's two bedrooms, a bathroom, and then from the master bedroom, there is a closet… in the closet, there's a door that goes into the attic. Okay, got it, thank you. 259 00:31:55.850 --> 00:32:01.390 Community Hall: Because… Right. It goes into the attic above the first floor. 260 00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:05.090 Community Hall: There's another attic above the second floor. Right. 261 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:09.320 Community Hall: But that's, like, a good thousand square feet, I think, of attic space there. 262 00:32:10.660 --> 00:32:12.010 Community Hall: Commissioner Ralph? 263 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:16.359 Community Hall: Yes, question for Attenibu, given the disclosure we just heard. 264 00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:22.849 Community Hall: Should the Commissioner recuse on this item, given the direct impact to them because of the proposed changes? 265 00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:34.179 Community Hall: I'll defer to the Commissioner to determine whether she has a conflict such that she believes she needs to recuse herself. 266 00:32:35.820 --> 00:32:36.580 Community Hall: Okay. 267 00:32:40.280 --> 00:32:44.200 Community Hall: Do we have any other comments? Yes, I did have more comments, so… 268 00:32:44.580 --> 00:32:51.419 Community Hall: Is this going to cause an additional square footage for the purpose of property tax calculations, such that property taxes go up? 269 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:54.550 Community Hall: Will… will the definition of square footage 270 00:32:56.470 --> 00:33:01.090 Community Hall: Change for the purpose of property taxes after this code is calculated. 271 00:33:01.530 --> 00:33:20.310 Community Hall: After this code is applied. I do not believe… I mean, taking your home as an example, possibly, I do not believe your project would qualify as something for purposes of state law. Yeah, I wasn't referring to my home, but I was referring to the new developments that will follow the passing of this change, whether 272 00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:35.509 Community Hall: the square footage computation would change for the purpose of property tax calculations? No, because this pretty much follows the definition of what building code is. Building code has a very, very similar definition. Anything under the roof 273 00:33:36.070 --> 00:33:39.059 Community Hall: Going off to how many levels you have, that's square footage. 274 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:55.210 Community Hall: Okay, and would you confirm that? We specifically tried to limit the definition that we crafted to address that state law consistency and make sure, ensure as best as possible that there wasn't any other 275 00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:59.890 Community Hall: secondary, effects, or… further. 276 00:34:00.890 --> 00:34:05.370 Community Hall: Consequences from the change in definition, from the revision. 277 00:34:05.470 --> 00:34:14.039 Community Hall: But can you assure us that this change will… I mean, I hear as best as possible, and that makes me nervous. I can't think of any… 278 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:29.579 Community Hall: potential scenario where this change would have the effect that you're describing? For example, has staff run this by the county tax assessor's office to understand if there's any implication of this change for property tax calculations? 279 00:34:33.730 --> 00:34:40.159 Community Hall: I… I… So… I'm gonna defer to the city attorney's office on this. No. 280 00:34:41.489 --> 00:34:45.930 Community Hall: Okay, have we asked the city attorney if that is something they can, or have verified? 281 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.379 Community Hall: Yeah, we, we can, we can double-check that, if possible. 282 00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:56.389 Community Hall: Well, generally, when we seek to 283 00:34:57.220 --> 00:35:05.210 Community Hall: align local law with state law. We don't look into tax consequences. 284 00:35:09.660 --> 00:35:14.210 Community Hall: So the AIC changes that… Was that stuff? 285 00:35:14.510 --> 00:35:17.790 Community Hall: Additional clarification, or was that part of the state law? 286 00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:20.819 Community Hall: The language around the attic. 287 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:33.379 Community Hall: It was around state law. I mean, the definition of, like I pointed out, the definition of square footage includes the word addicts in there, and it excludes it, so we wanted to have clear objective metrics. 288 00:35:33.690 --> 00:35:40.190 Community Hall: That the city must have in order to be able to make those calculations without any discrepancy. 289 00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:48.409 Community Hall: So I'm looking at the… The state law language. 290 00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:54.710 Community Hall: And does that contain specifically the attic-related Terminology. 291 00:35:55.290 --> 00:35:56.939 Community Hall: In the state law itself. 292 00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:02.840 Community Hall: I, I, I'm sorry, what are you… 293 00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:07.999 Community Hall: Looking at… Yeah, so I was looking at… Let's see, what is this? 294 00:36:09.060 --> 00:36:13.380 Community Hall: 65913.4A2C3, or 2C2. 295 00:36:14.860 --> 00:36:17.590 Community Hall: Would you have the state law handy that you can project? 296 00:36:18.070 --> 00:36:21.060 Community Hall: I, I don't have it on screen right now, no. Okay. 297 00:36:22.040 --> 00:36:27.600 Community Hall: But, I guess the question is, was the language around the attic Part of the state. 298 00:36:28.130 --> 00:36:29.630 Community Hall: Love Oviage. 299 00:36:34.010 --> 00:36:38.670 Community Hall: to the extent we discussed this before, I do believe that 300 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:49.270 Community Hall: the definitions that we revised were revised to be consistent with state law. The introduction of additional… 301 00:36:49.520 --> 00:36:52.030 Community Hall: objective descriptions. 302 00:36:52.200 --> 00:36:57.300 Community Hall: Was provided by, our… local ordinance. 303 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:06.049 Community Hall: So, you may not find that language directly in state law, but what I'm getting at is the consistency part. 304 00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:08.729 Community Hall: and the alignment. 305 00:37:09.190 --> 00:37:16.799 Community Hall: But specifically the… The AIC itself is not language that is in the… In the state law. 306 00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:21.709 Community Hall: It refers to the… Parking structures, but not the attic. 307 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:33.500 Community Hall: The attic was an existing local definition that we provided additional clarification for. Okay. 308 00:37:34.240 --> 00:37:39.540 Community Hall: So technically, the AIC could be excluded, and we would be compliant with the state law if we passed the rest of it. 309 00:37:40.430 --> 00:37:42.749 Community Hall: You'd be creating an ambiguity. 310 00:37:44.770 --> 00:37:45.710 Community Hall: How so? 311 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.740 Community Hall: I'm sorry, repeat what you just said. If the commissioners today passed 312 00:37:51.970 --> 00:37:56.980 Community Hall: The motion to approve staff recommendation minus the changes about the attic. 313 00:37:57.510 --> 00:38:02.219 Community Hall: Would that meet the compliance or the confirmance of the state law? 314 00:38:03.690 --> 00:38:18.290 Community Hall: So the objective of providing that definition, and all three definitions, is to provide greater clarification and to remove ambiguity. So, to the extent you don't move forward with it, you would leave in place 315 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.809 Community Hall: A gap, in some sense, and ambiguity. 316 00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:28.190 Community Hall: But it's not… Specifically, an ambiguity that the state law creates. 317 00:38:28.310 --> 00:38:44.500 Community Hall: As in, the AIC is not a reference in the state law itself. The risk we're trying to address is to reduce any further disputes around these definitions, so I guess in some sense, if you didn't pass it today, you'd leave that risk in place. 318 00:38:44.510 --> 00:38:51.309 Community Hall: we're trying to address that risk. Right, so if the word attic and verbiage around that is not in the state law, what risk? 319 00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:53.390 Community Hall: Do we believe this introduces? 320 00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:59.810 Community Hall: I'm just trying to understand, is there language specifically related to the attic? 321 00:38:59.970 --> 00:39:06.469 Community Hall: in the state law clauses that we are looking to get in conformance with. And my understanding is there isn't. 322 00:39:07.180 --> 00:39:15.289 Community Hall: I would defer to planning staff, because I do see it in the context of evaluating, and the idea is that with 323 00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:26.050 Community Hall: a more robust definition, maybe the evaluation and the result would be, more efficient. 324 00:39:28.190 --> 00:39:31.430 Community Hall: I don't know if we're… Okay, I will pause my questions for now. 325 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:42.620 Community Hall: Well, I just had a clarifying question for staff. So currently, if someone is remodeling their home, and they have a habitable attic area. 326 00:39:43.020 --> 00:39:47.820 Community Hall: That would usually… staff would be treating that as part of the square footage, right? 327 00:39:48.540 --> 00:40:08.210 Community Hall: Correct. Okay, so from that standpoint, I'm not sure that very much changes with this clarification of a definition. It gets a little more specific, but, you know, the attic is already either being included or excluded from square footage based on how it's being used. Vice Chair? Yeah, that was kind of my question. If 328 00:40:08.540 --> 00:40:10.460 Community Hall: If you have a finished attic. 329 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.520 Community Hall: And you finish it… it was unfinished, and you finish it. 330 00:40:16.600 --> 00:40:33.109 Community Hall: then it becomes part of the square footage, and it would… it would trigger a property tax change, I would believe, because now you have more habitable area. Correct, and you have to meet all building code requirements, planning requirements for having a second floor, whatever it is, yeah. 331 00:40:33.250 --> 00:40:34.100 Community Hall: Yeah. 332 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:39.620 Community Hall: I mean, and it should trigger the property tax increase, so… 333 00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:45.330 Community Hall: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, if I could just add, I think once it's finished and habitable, it's no longer an attic. 334 00:40:46.220 --> 00:40:54.249 Community Hall: I mean, that would be the way to look at it. Then it would be usable living space in part of your house. So I think that… 335 00:40:54.870 --> 00:41:02.810 Community Hall: the conflict with attic with state law, I don't think there is one. I think the definition is there because it's more precise about what an addict is. 336 00:41:03.010 --> 00:41:05.700 Community Hall: And what it is not. That's how I would put it. 337 00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:07.270 Community Hall: Okay. 338 00:41:08.890 --> 00:41:25.570 Community Hall: All right. Do we have any other comments? Yeah. Commissioner Fung? So I have two. My first comment is that, one of the things that left out at me was the thing about the permanent ladder. That probably could use a little bit of clarification. I think that's the only area that was ambiguous to me. 339 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:28.330 Community Hall: Also I, 340 00:41:29.050 --> 00:41:35.789 Community Hall: welcome the verbiage that was added with regard to residential parking. I know that that was actually an issue in projects in the past. 341 00:41:35.990 --> 00:41:39.599 Community Hall: So, I think, you know, in that respect, you know, I think this is a… 342 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:46.259 Community Hall: you know, consider changes. It was a little funny to see this particular item show up as a… 343 00:41:46.610 --> 00:41:51.430 Community Hall: You know, as agenda item at the same time. This is not the first time the attorney's office has come. 344 00:41:51.600 --> 00:41:57.469 Community Hall: with, you know, proposed verriage. So, you know, I think that it's certainly appropriate for that to come here. 345 00:41:57.810 --> 00:41:58.630 Community Hall: Thank you. 346 00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:14.130 Community Hall: I have just another question as we move towards a motion. Would it be terrible, would there be negative repercussions to just removing the stair requirement? Because the whole purpose of this attic definition is just to make sure that 347 00:42:14.330 --> 00:42:25.160 Community Hall: It's not a habitable area. But to me, whether there are stairs or not stairs going to an attic does not change whether it's habitable. 348 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:37.880 Community Hall: That's at the Commission's discretion, but I will say it's much easier to convert a space when you have permanent stairs up to it. Okay. Thank you. 349 00:42:38.510 --> 00:42:40.090 Community Hall: Any other comments? 350 00:42:41.100 --> 00:42:45.680 Community Hall: Okay. Do we have a motion? I'm ready to make a motion. Okay. 351 00:42:46.080 --> 00:43:02.370 Community Hall: Okay, so I move that the Planning Commission adopt the draft resolution as recommended by staff, with the change that, lacking permanent stairs from the floor below be changed to lacking permanent stairs directly to the attic space from the floor below. 352 00:43:03.820 --> 00:43:04.790 Community Hall: I'll second. 353 00:43:06.830 --> 00:43:11.949 Community Hall: Sorry, can that be clarified again? Can that be clarified again? What was the change? 354 00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:22.979 Community Hall: The change was to change the wording from lack permanent stairs from the floor below to lack permanent stairs directly to the attic space from the floor below. 355 00:43:29.810 --> 00:43:41.139 Community Hall: Does that make sense? So, if there was an attic that was large enough to accommodate maybe an unfinished attic that remained with a staggered, finished room. 356 00:43:41.500 --> 00:43:43.010 Community Hall: A level above it. 357 00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:48.330 Community Hall: And the stairs went, I guess, to the attic. 358 00:43:49.310 --> 00:43:51.389 Community Hall: What is the consequence of this change? 359 00:43:51.640 --> 00:43:54.560 Community Hall: It would exclude the square footage? 360 00:43:55.310 --> 00:43:56.670 Community Hall: Asking to understand. 361 00:43:58.270 --> 00:44:06.429 Community Hall: Sorry, I didn't understand your question. So, if the attic is large enough that you can basically have sort of a two -layer usage, where you can 362 00:44:06.940 --> 00:44:13.109 Community Hall: And we've actually seen attics large enough to have some of that in, I guess, Avenida. 363 00:44:13.810 --> 00:44:19.330 Community Hall: So, if you've got a large enough roof area where you can accommodate living… 364 00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:27.279 Community Hall: Space for the kids, for example, at the very top of that attic area, such that the portion beneath it is still unfinished. 365 00:44:27.450 --> 00:44:29.859 Community Hall: But the ladder goes into the unfinished attic. 366 00:44:30.410 --> 00:44:32.269 Community Hall: What is the effect of this change? 367 00:44:38.590 --> 00:44:53.839 Community Hall: I'm not sure I followed that hypothetical completely. I mean, it's possible that there would be no effect to the change. The change was meant to clarify, so… 368 00:44:54.270 --> 00:44:57.680 Community Hall: Okay. It's an attic or not. I mean, it… 369 00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.679 Community Hall: So, in theory, if you had a large enough 370 00:45:01.130 --> 00:45:06.930 Community Hall: attic structure, and it's not uncommon, there is actually one in Avenida, and there may be more. 371 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:11.659 Community Hall: Where the attic itself may have permanent stairs. 372 00:45:12.250 --> 00:45:17.250 Community Hall: And then the… Improved space, or the finished space. 373 00:45:17.470 --> 00:45:21.700 Community Hall: Has a temporary ladder, so for a kid's room, for example, that's right at the top. 374 00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:28.489 Community Hall: So that would… Without… with the staff recommendation, that would basically include the square footage. 375 00:45:28.660 --> 00:45:31.440 Community Hall: With the revised motion, that would exclude the square footage. 376 00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:41.930 Community Hall: I'm sorry, I honestly have to say I don't understand the question. If I can clarify, a temporary ladder would not… the definition is for permanent stairs. Okay, let me ask differently. 377 00:45:42.080 --> 00:45:45.700 Community Hall: Can staff give an example where… 378 00:45:46.490 --> 00:45:54.910 Community Hall: the behavior would be different with the staff-recommended motion versus the Commissioner's proposed amended motion. 379 00:45:55.750 --> 00:46:00.250 Community Hall: Can we understand an example where things would be different for one versus the other? 380 00:46:02.410 --> 00:46:12.700 Community Hall: I think the example was provided by Commissioner Linskog. For the purpose of calculation of square footage? Again, we're not going to be calculating square footage for 381 00:46:15.370 --> 00:46:28.639 Community Hall: For the purpose of calculating square footage, if you had permanent stairs going into an attic space, then it would be included in the square footage. If you did not have permanent stairs going up to it, it was uninhabitable. 382 00:46:29.050 --> 00:46:32.699 Community Hall: You know, unfinished and no windows, then it would be excluded. 383 00:46:36.520 --> 00:46:37.380 Community Hall: Thank you. 384 00:46:38.170 --> 00:46:41.509 Community Hall: Alright, do we have any further comments or questions? 385 00:46:41.710 --> 00:46:43.909 Community Hall: And City Clerk, I believe we're ready for a vote. 386 00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:54.510 Community Hall: Oh, fuck. 387 00:46:56.110 --> 00:46:56.800 Community Hall: Okay. 388 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:00.780 Community Hall: The motion carries unanimously. 389 00:47:01.040 --> 00:47:09.679 Community Hall: Thank you very much. So, we will move on to the next items. We have no old business or new business. Do we have any staff and commission reports? 390 00:47:11.200 --> 00:47:20.740 Community Hall: I do not have a staff report at this time, except to state that the following two meetings are canceled due to the summer recess, so we will convene back in September. 391 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:23.329 Community Hall: Great. Do we have any commission reports? 392 00:47:24.470 --> 00:47:29.209 Community Hall: Okay, then we'll move to future agenda sending. Does anyone have any items? 393 00:47:31.300 --> 00:47:34.250 Community Hall: All right, then we will adjourn the meeting. Thank you very much. 394 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:37.899 Community Hall: Wow, that's a record. 395 00:47:38.030 --> 00:47:39.799 Community Hall: Well, it should be there.