PC 02-23-66 10321 South Saratoga-Sunnyvale Road
Cupert�_no, California, 9501 phone : 252-�t5��
PG -Ldl 80, 000 � �
C I T Y 0 F C U P E R T I P3 0
California
Mee'�ing was held a� the City Hall, 10321 South Sara�oga-Sunnyvale
Road, Cupertino, at 8:00 P.M.
T'2:ii�TrJTES OF Tf-iE ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE PLANNING COMMISSIGN� �jr�ORK
SLSSION), February 23 1966
I' SALUTE TO THE FLAG
II ROLL CALL
Comm, present: Frolich (8:10), I-i�rshon, Hor�an, Traeumer
Johnson
Comm. absent: None
Staff present : Director of Public ti�Torks, Frank Finney
Director cf Planning, Adde Laurin
Assistant Planner, Jim Nuzum
Recording Szcretary, Lois Inwards
III JNFINISI:�li BUSI�ESS
Chairman �ohnson expressed suprise that �he Height Ordinance
?��as on this evening's a�enda. It was i.he Planning Commis-
sion's unclerstanding that this worl� session was on Under-
�round Utilities Ordinance only.
'I'her� followed considerable discussion tahe�her or not i�
would be Iegal to reb��en the Public Hearings on the Hei�h'c
Ordinance without �.dv�rtisind it. Comm. Traeumer said th«'c
'chere had been some comments from the audience that there
had been no Public Hearings on Section 6�8 .6.
Moved by Comm, Traeumer to reopen the Public Hearin�s on
Section 68.6, since it has had no Public Hearingo Motion
died for lack of a Second. Chairr�an Johnson said this point
had been raised at the C3.ty �ouncil, and he stated tha'c
Section 68e6 had been discussed at least at 'cU�o meetingsm
It U�as the Plannin; Director's opinion 'chat if the Plannin�
Commission decides to reopen the Publ�.c Hearings, this must
be readver'cised; Comm. Frolich a�reed, an�. said 'chere is
r�o'cliing wrong, legally, with reopening a closed hearing.
Comm. Hirshon said he would like more time to go into this,
and the fac'c that chere is some question of whether or not
theJ can reopen 'che Public Hearings wi'chout advertising
indicates that i� mi�ht be wise to put t?�is discussion over
until they can cl�iec�� with the City Attorneyo
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PC-ti�l i�2inutes of tne Plannin� Comm. Ad jour:ned �Iee�ing of 2% 23/56
There were some tv�enty people in the audience, vuho were
interested i.n this Height Ordinance.
On i,he question of the turning radius, the Director of Public
Wor�es said that a restating of facts is probably all that
is needed.
Comm. Traeumer sL?�gested the Commission shouTd go ahead
and study_the points-the Council raised. The Planning
Commission decided to discuss the three points raised by
the City Council: 68.1, 68.2 and 6806.
The City Council recommended the Plannin� Commission
restudy Section 68.1, in view of the fact that antennas
come in 10' 3ncrements; keeping in mind the power line
heigh�CS and the ultimate height to be alloti�aecl. Mayor
Dempster amended this to put a limitation of 50'.
Comm. Horgan said the Cit�r.Council got the idea that the
piece� are solc� in 10' increments and you need basically
10' over the potiaer lines, The avera�e roof top is about
2Z!' . t�lith the avera�e of 2Z4' of antenna on top of that,
_�t eauals Z�8' . �xhibit �'1 illustrates the type and height
of ar��enna �_s usually found on a 2-story house. Comm.
'i'raeumer said he l�.as onl�r 7' antenna on his 2-story house,
The Director of Public T�:rorks cautioned that no cognizance
was made of poNaer lines in his study that he did for the
Planr_Ing Commission. Comm. Hor�an said the City Manager
has stated most poles are 40', so the �E8' limitation is
8' over th�t, The Director of Public Wor�cs said 'che
ultimate height slzould be 10-15' above the TV antennas.
He said the City Council was trying �o es'cablish a
vertical line for the hams so. they wouldn't interfere
tiai'ch TV reception,
Mr. Thomas Riddle, of P.G. & E., was asked about 'che height
of u'cility poles. He said they are usually put 6-7' in�o
�he �round. The ex�reme length of the poles is �15-50'.
The average.ins'callec�.height of poles in Cuper�ino would
be about �40-�5', although they do vary c�nsiderably.
Comm. Frolich said the ham antennas themsel�res radiate on
a beam with some iaidth. He feels i� is important to get
those ham antennas far enough above the TV antennas to
eliminate int�rference. The F.C.C. could come in and
check out a compla�nt and find the ham's equipment is
clean but the Ci�y has imposed a restriction which re-
sults in int;erference to his nei�hbors. It was his
opinion that tizere will be very few ham antennas going
over �+8' .
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PC-Wl Minutes of the Planning Comm, Ad�ourned Mee�ing of 2%23��c�
Comm, Horgan raised the question whether a Use Permit is
the proper way to handle requests to go over tYie limitation,
It Uras Comm. Frolich's opinion th3s would be improper, He
feels the ham antennas should be up over the TV antennas.
Perhaps the Variance procedure is a better�way to handle
this. Comm. Hirshon said i� is hard to show hardship for
such �Tariance reques�s.
� Chairman Johnson s�.id, if there were a 1ot of antennas of
over �8', what would you do when somebody cornes in and asks
for a radio tower and there are Ilothirzg but tivo= story, h�me s
in tne area. , -'��
:.;:,
The Director of Public Works said he was t.,�.�:. to remain
neutral. He does not ti11ant to send his men �-_� � to check all
i,hese antennas. The aesthetics do not chan�e :,hat much in
a matter of a fe�v feet. In carrying cases up to the Supreme
Court in several states,'the results �n�ere that th� tax
payers have lost the cases and paid for the litigation. ?-��e
l�ave to pick a height that everyone can live with.
Chairman Johnson asked if., ti�ith 10' increments,. is there
sti11 a need �o put s�mething on top? The Director of Publ
T,�lorks said you still have to put 2 to Ll' of "spinach" above
that. `I�he retr°ac towers come in 37' , 5L�' , 89' , 105'
and 122', and are �round based, wi�h about 1 !' added for
the mechaniam on top. Comm, Frolich said there is a tele-
scoping type a'ntenna on the marke�, also.
Chairman Johnson 'chen summari2ed:
four 10' sec'cions + tvao �' sections =� �T8'
five 10' seci,ions +�' section = 5li'
retrac�cable == 58' total
The Director of Public T�zorks said the ori�inally proposed
60�. he3.ght included the "spinach" on top.
Chairman Johnson said the Commission has c�iscussed the
towers on the groundy now how about the ones on top of
the roaf. The Director of Public Works said they are
cheaper, but he did not think hams would pu their
antennas on the roor because of their weight.
Comm. Traeumer said �he number of Use Permits applied for
should be checked within six monlcYls to see if the Ordinance
rias proven to be unwieldy. The Direc'cor of Public Works
said that probabl3r all �he Use Permit applications you ar�
�oing to �e� Uaould come in within six months.
Comm. Traeumer recalled that at one of the,meet�ngs �ie as��ed
�he individual hams in the audi�nce hov�� high �heir'antenna�
were„and only one or �wo said �chey were over 50'.
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�C�T��l Minutes of the Pl.anning Commission Adj. Niee'cin� of 2/_?_�f6�
------------------------------------------------_-------------------
Comm. Frolich said he f elt Use Permits ti•aer�e �unfair; it
should be a Vdriance procedure. If so, he was in favor of
se'�ting a higlzer limit. One of the big ob j ections here is
the array on top the ani,enna.
Comm. Hirshon would like to keep some reasonable limit on
hei�ht and have Use Permits rather �han V�riances for ex-
ceptions. He su�;�ested leaving the limit at �8', in Iigh�
of the power line height; and anythino above should require
'che applicant to appl�r for a Use Permit. Comm. Traeumer
said that, for ��aant of a better tiaay, the Use Permit seems
to be easier for �che tim� being. Comm. Horgan feels the
�25 fee is too high. Comm. Frolich objected to the Use
Permit procedure, not because it is cumbersome, bu'c the
reasons for Use Permits are not always justified.
Comm. Frolich said UHF and color TV are Uecoming more
popular, and the� are causino some problems which may
requ3.re greater height e The Director of' Public tiJorks
quotec3 a court case where exterior antennas had been
ruled a necessity, not a luxury.
The Director of Public ?^lorks sa3.d almost a11 hams' towers
are ir�st�alled at ground level. It is a pretty heavy loacl
to put on a roof.
Ther� was considerable discussion of problems �f�hich co�ld
arise in the hii.lf areas. The problems seemed unsurmouni,able.
Tlle Director of Plannin� a�reed wi�h the Director of Public
���Torks, that �he UJhip-type antenna, consisting of one pole,
not to exceed 2" �n diameter, �nrould b� preferrable to �
horizontal array, and perhaps should be excepted from
hei;ht restrictions.
Comm. Traeumer does not thinl, that the height of TV
antennas on two-story homes must be 2�{'. He has a 7'
antenna on top of his two-story home and it works just
fine. Chairman Johnson was in favor of the 54' limitation;
you can get the retractable tower if you need more height.
The 5�! should no'c make it necessary for everybod�T to
obtain a Use Permit.
Section 68.2. The Ci�Cy Council recommended that the
Planning Commission consider the insertion of the defini-
tion of lot area at 7500 sq. ft.
Tl�ie Direci,or of Planning said that some zones require
bi�ger lot a�ea than 7500 sq. ft.; some zones have no
minimum requiremen'c. After discussion, Comm. Frolich
su�gested: "...one tower per lot for every lot up to
10,000 sq, ft, and one additional tower for each addi-
tional 10,000 sq. ft. of lot size."
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PC-Wl Minutes of the Plannin� Comm, Adjour.ned Meeting of 2/ 23/66
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Chairman Johnson called for a break at 9:L!5 P,M.
Section 68.6. The Plannin� Commission is asked to consider
the availability of antennas for various megacycles and to
reconsider the dimension of the horizon'cal circle,
The Director of Public tidorks had an exhibit illustratin�
how you arrive at �he turnin� radius. He then distribu�ced
copies of a catzlo� describing various types of arrays,
The more popular ones now will fit in a lo' turning radius
although 20' is desirable.
The Planning Director said it isn't so much 'che 'curnin�
radius as the massiveness at the top of the antenna. Yerhaps
restrictions sn.ould be stated in the leng'ch of tubing
rather than turnin� radius, as proposed by �he Dir°ctor of
Public Works. The latter said �0' to 200' of tubing is
used �oday. He believes some color TV an�ennas are more
aesthetically obnoxious than ham radio tovaers.
Comm. Hirshon aslced hotn� this proble�r� has b�en solved in
o�her cities. The Director of Public Z�Jorks has checiced
Wi�h many other eities who have tried to construct a heieh�
ordinance, and in each case, it has been 'chrocvn out because
it is too hard 'co define. Comm, Traeumer does not see hou�a
you can regula'ce �he length of tubin� or the parabolic dish
'cype antenna, as described by the Director of Public 1�lorltis,
Comm. Hirshon now wonders if the turning radius can be
fairly re�ul_ated. He aslced if the prong-type is the mos�
commonly used. The Direc�or of Public Wol°ks said it is
not; thei^e are a lot of the larger ones around. They are
more efficiento
The Director of Public ti�Torks felt the ri�ht to receive a
TV signal is a person's inalienable right -- this has been
determined in the Cot?rts.
Chairman Johnson sug;ested the staff check to see what
other cities are doin� abou't controlling arrays. The
Director of FuUlic Works said that no one �izat the staff
could find, res'cricts them� Only three oi' the t�aelve or
so listed in the catalog will fit within 'che 10' radius.
Chairman Johnson noLed that Counc. Fi'czgerald had suggested
that this be conLrolled by H-Con'crol. He Uaondered what
�he Commissioners felt about that.
Comm. Traeumer feals section 68.6 should be deleted because
of the inherent problems and the i'act that i'c would be
unenforceable. Comm. Hirshon Feels that you canno� effeci,-
ively regulate them, Comm. Horgan said �he 10' radius did
not include acceptable antennas. If we limit the radius 'co
20' ii, includes just about everything, so tive mi�h'c as v�ell
leave it out.
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F�C�-Wl Minutes of the Plann3.n�; Comm. Ad �ourned Meeting of 2/23/66
The Director of Pul�lic t.�orlts recommended cleleting Section
68 .6; it is almos�c unenforceable,
The proposed chan�es of the definitions in Section 65.2(b)
, and (c) were introduced.
Chairman Johnson said �hat in the Planning Commission
Minutes of October 25th, in two areas, the size of the
array was discussed but not decided. At �cYie next meeting
it was discussed once. The bone of contention was wid�h
' as vuell as height. E'�t the following meeting, it was also
mentioned.
Moved by Comm. Traeumer, seconded by Comm. Frolich, to
� delei;e Section 68.6 from the Ordinance, because it is
almost impossible �o regulate the length of tubing or
the par�bolic d�sh-type antenna; it has been proven in the
Cou�ts that it is a person's inalienable ri`-;ht to receive
- a TV signal; and if passed, this section ti•�aould be
virtually unenforceable.
Comm. H�.rshon asl�ed if there i s�ny good reason why the
cross pieces should be limited. It has Ueen shown that
this is goin� to be difficult to control,
AYES: Comm. Frol�ch, Traeumer
NAYS: Comm, Hirshvn, Horgan, Johnson
Motion dies, 2-3
Comm. Hirshon felt that perhaps it would 1�e best to regu-
late the overall dimensions. Comm. Horgan feels the
Public Hearin�s musL be reopened.
The staff was instructed to checic with the City l�ttorney
to see if this must be readvertised.
III N� BUSINESS
Moved by Comm. Traeumer, seconded by Comm, Hirshon, to
carry Ordinance No. 331 over to the nex'c re�ular meeting.
Motion carr3.ed, ,5-0
IV ADJOURNMENT
It was unanimously agreed to adjourn at 10:30 P.M.
A P PROVED :
ATTEST : �
•-� s Robert Johnson
(,,�` �'�t.�.e. fi - _"L_L -Y
,�,�. ;,� � iairman
Dlrec�tor of ; lanning �� -'~
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